'Is this as green as we can get? No. If the answer is 'yes', we have a serious problem', Environment Secretary David Miliband told the Fabian fringe in Manchester. But the environmental movement needed to do more to mobilise pressure for political change.

Miliband pointed out that on climate change, in particular, we have to make some serious decisions now or it will be much more costly to 'fix' later. He also said that the government was on track to make those choices, and that the UK is on track to double the Kyoto commitment on greenhouse gases.

He admitted, however, that CO2 emissions have gone up by 2%. This was partly because of a stable economy: "Recessions are a good way to cut CO2 emissions", he joked.

The event's Chair, Fabian Research Director Tim Horton, set the agenda by asking how Labour could tell a better story about the environment and take back the political initiative in this area.

The Labour Party is particularly suited to addressing dangerous climate change because 'if you care about the environment, you care about equality and a better political system too", David Miliband argued.

"If you're interested in the environment you've got to be interested in equality and a better political system," he said. "Why aren't there people marching to save the planet like there were last year to save lives in the developing world? We can't mobilise people. Why?" Miliband pointed to the successes of the Labour Party in building a social contract which had civilised the country in the last century around workers rights, NHS services. But, he argued, "the environmental contract required is global not just national."

Miliband quoted from Neil Kinnock's first Labour Party Conference speech in 1983, when he said "'We live in a crowded, dangerous beautiful world'. Twenty three years on", the minister pointed out, "there are about 1.5 billion more people in the world. It's a more dangerous world – carbon emissions have gone up and terror. And in some ways it's a less beautiful world, if you think of the massive coral reefs that have been destroyed, for example. We have the solutions. The question is how to mobilise the solutions." He said that this was a Labour issue because "We've got the values, commitments and instincts to address climate change. If you're a Europhobe you're never going to be able to tackle climate change. You can't if you don't believe that markets need rules. You've also got to believe in social justice. Tories simply want to 'exhault' people to change. We – the Labour Party – have to give people the framework in which to live."

Emily Thornberry MP responded to the question in a similar way: "This just can't be as green as it gets. If it was, it would mean we're the generation that will melt the icecaps, will ensure climate is out of control. And the poor will suffer the worst." She suggested that Nye Bevan would be very pleased that the public is up for something quite radical: "It's no longer about 'will we be green?', but 'how green?'"

She argued that we need to continue taking an international, moral lead, that people need to feel confident that they can play a part. This, she pointed out, came down to collectivism, "and that's what the Labour Party's all about. Kier Hardy would be horrified that we're not investing in industry more. We are the Saudi Arabia of wind. Please, minister, get on with it."

Lucy Siegle, who writes an ethical living column in the Observer, raised the growth in aviation as a big question and told the minister he was 'cheeky' for demanding that people go on marches.

She argues that unless there are some very big changes made, the ambitions of the general public will be thwarted. "There a real demand for greener housing and greener homes. There is the WEE directive, but the UK is one of the few European countries not to have brought that into effect. The public will be disappointed by this government.

Graham Wynne, Chief Executive of the RSPB, began by showing strong support of the broad thrust of government policy: "It is arguable we've seen more progress in the last nine years than we saw in the previous twenty. There's a lot to be proud of." He felt that there was now a higher level of political awareness and engagement than there had ever been before and he made clear his certainty that David Miliband was genuinely committed to tackling climate change.

However, Wynne also argued that if the government did – as Miliband had said – have all the tools for the job, it wasn't using them very efficiently. This was because technology needed to be driven faster and we needed to be more sophisticated about the range of ways to change consumer behaviour. This, he said, was largely because climate change is perceived as a chronic rather than an acute problem. "There are millions of voters out there who care", he said. "The UK can take the lead internationally on climate change and on the natural environment."

The Fabian fringe debate 'Is this as green as we get?' took place on Wednesday 27th September 2005 in Manchester Town Hall on the Labour conference fringe. The speakers were David Miliband, Secretary of State for Environment, Emily Thornberry MP, Graham Wynne, RSPB, Lucy Siegle, The Observer, with Tim Horton, Research Director of the Fabian Society chairing. The Fabian Society is grateful to Renewables Northwest and RSPB for their support of the event.