Torture can never be right, says head of Liberty, as Hazel Blears says that current criminal justice system is insufficient to meet new threats.

Speakers: Julian Baggini, Hazel Blears, Shami Chakrabarti, Shahid Malik, Alf Dubs

"In my deepest, darkest moments I do struggle with some of this", Home Office Minister Hazel Blears told the Fabian Britishness conference session on 'security matters', admitting to unease about how to balance security with civil liberties while insisting that the government was getting the balance right in response to an increased threat level.

Shami Chakrabarti, the head of civil rights organisation Liberty warned that certain liberties must not be compromised: 'We must agree the non-negotiables, and torture is one … Whatever the scenario, torture is never right.'

Instead she argued that 'we need to think about proportionality, necessity and equal treatment when considering necessary interference to civil liberties,' and that the Human Rights Act, 'Labour's greatest achievement', was the 'best way of evaluating how to proceed in the face of current challenges to democracy.'

But Hazel Blears argued that the current criminal justice system – which tries people after the crime – was insufficient to deal with terrorism today which required intervention a the planning stage.

She went on to argue that the terrorist threat today is significantly different to the terrorist threat posed by the IRA in the recent past. She cited the global nature of terrorism today, and the objective of some groups to maximise the number of civilian casualties, as key differences which made investigating and charging terrorist far more difficult, creating 'exceptional circumstances' where prosecution through the criminal justice system did not work. She described the terrorist threat faced by Britain today as 'Deeper, more complex, and here for the foreseeable future.'

Blears went on to challenge Chakrabarti as to what measures she would recommend to deal with the terrorist attacks, such as the London bombings in July, which were intended to cause maximum loss of life.

'We do need to allow for exceptional circumstances' said Chakrabarti, 'I can imagine a situation where the rule of law was so abused, that the law itself was temporarily suspended. Article 15 of the Human Rights Act caters for this, but it must be temporary, and we must know the route back to civilization.'

Julian Baggini, Editor of The Philosopher's Magazine, argued that government must enter a contract with citizens to establish trust. 'If there was a need to introduce legislative change temporarily that infringed on negative liberty, then government must be more creative', said Baggini, 'If the state takes, it must give.' Amongst his proposals were compensation for those under surveillance if charges were not brought, and greater disclosure on the part of the state of the information that it held on individuals. But the Home Office minister, whilst recognising that the idea of compensation may be 'attractive', argued that the financial implications rendered the proposal impractical.

Yet legislative changes must not be the only response to the terrorist threat, warned Shahid Malik, MP for Dewsbury - the home town of London bomber Mohammed Sidique Khan. 'If our response to 7/7 is to go into cities and approach young Muslims because we think they are vulnerable and isolated then we are missing a trick. We must also go into white, working-class communities and address the disillusionment there.'

The panel, chaired by former Northern Ireland minister, and member of the Fabian Executive, Alf Dubs, discussed how the left could combine security with liberty. Julian Baggini, claimed that arguments which focused exclusively on infringements to negative liberty were more befitting of the libertarian right. 'The left', he reminded the audience, 'must remember that freedom is more complex'. Indeed, he went on to argue that the left had a tradition of balancing freedom of the individual with freedom of society.

Hazel Blears agreed: 'Labour is the party that recognises freedom of community', since Beveridge 'Labour has recognised the need for freedom from want, disease, ignorance, squalor and idleness so that the poor may be able to enjoy the freedoms of the rich.'

The panel expressed broad agreement in the need for pragmatism in the response to terrorism and a focus on the balance of rights and freedoms, but Chakrabarti warned against complacency. 'The way to defend our rights is not to become too complacent. The constitution could easily become eroded, by accident or intent.'

Security matters: Can we be safe and free? with Julian Baggini (Editor, Philisopher's Magazine); Hazel Blears MP (Home Office Minister); Shami Chakrabarti (Director, Liberty); Shahid Malik MP; Chair: Lord Alf Dubs (Fabian Executive). This panel debate took part at the Fabian New Year Conference 'Who do we want to be? The Future of Britishness' on January 14, 2006, at Imperial College London.