Michael White

It looks as if it's a large and enthusiastic and lively audience tonight. I don't need to introduce the candidates to an audience like this, you know them all. So let's start right away. Newsnight has the dreaded Crick here somewhere and please fill out the questionnaires before you leave, not who you think has done best tonight but who you think is ought to win. I'm in a position to say that Hilary Benn is still short of three votes for the nominations, so one last heave. [laughter] Each of the candidates will have three minutes to answer a question from me then we'll take supplementary questions. We'll take questions from the audience on three broad themes. How does the Labour party build better democracy in Britain; the second is increasing life chances in Britain through public services and our communities; and the third is creating global stability through foreign policy and, a tall order this one, tackling climate change. And that should take us through to 8.30.

Jennifer, who organised all this, who should have been organizing the Oscars – she's the type – said this will give it a bit of theatrical flavour. The first person to be asked a question, 'why should we vote for you as deputy leader?' is Peter Hain.

[applause]

Peter Hain

Well, thank you Michael and thank you to Progress and the Fabians for organizing this event, a better class of Question Time I think, although we're all friends on the top table rather than fighting each other.

I want to be deputy leader because I want to ensure that Labour wins the next general election. With the Tories resurgent, we have our work cut out but we can and we will win if we pull together. That means reconnecting Labour's leadership with the grassroots; reconnecting with trade unionists; and, above all, reconnecting with voters. Reaching out to all those in our society that we've lost touch with, and rebuilding the progressive coalition which won us two successive landslides but which fragmented last time. So just more of the same will not win it, nor will going back to failed 1980s agenda.

We'll only win if we offer a radical vision for the future: leading the fight against climate change with the new red-green agenda, combining environmental protection with social justice; taking much more action to narrow the gap between rich and poor; more democratic reform and decentralising power to local government, to local communities and to individuals; and by pursuing a progressive internationalist foreign policy. To win, we need a totally loyal and strong, independently minded deputy leader, not tied to any party faction, who will act as an umbilical chord between the cabinet and grassroots members.

By bringing the party back together, bringing people back together – like I've done in all my government jobs – most recently with the dramatic transformation we achieved in Northern Ireland. As deputy leader I want to make Labour once again the natural home for all of those who share our progressive values of social justice, of equality, of human rights and democracy. To make Labour once again the party that enthuses everyone to build a Britain of hope and fairness and liberty and opportunity for everyone. Thank you very much. [applause]

Jon Cruddas

Thank you very much indeed, Michael. I want to be deputy leader of the Labour party because I want to be full time deputy leader of the Labour party whose task singularly is to rebuild the party by fighting the Tories at the next general election to win. I think the problem is that we've collapsed three elements, in terms of deputy leader of the Labour party, in terms of deputy prime minister and of full time big cabinet portfolio. And my concern when I tipped my hat into the ring was that this was a beauty contest within the Cabinet rather than a thorough examination of our capacity on the ground. So therefore I tipped my hat in the ring because I think we should separate out the constituent parts of this job and it should become exclusively a full-time job about rebuilding our organisation on the ground and I will suggest we should replace the position of party chair, which is imposed on the party from the prime minister himself to articulate the views of the cabinet to the party, rather than to articulate the views of the party to the cabinet. So I see the job as a transmission belt with the party on the ground and the party in the cabinet.

I would suggest also we need a thorough examination of why we've lost four and a half million voters over the last few years and I think we can isolate groups that have deserted us and we need to analyse the reasons for it, especially public service workers. And the more working class you are, the greater propensity it is to leave the Labour party and not support us since 97. What they call urban intellectuals have disproportionately moved away from the Labour party to the Liberals. And finally amongst black and ethnic minorities. And we need to analyse why and address them and provide alternative policy [avenues]. Primarily I'm here to put my hat in the ring because I want to be a full time, elected deputy leader of the party, exclusively focused, not on houses, borbals, big cabinet jobs – none of that – just on the Labour party itself. Thank you very much. [applause]

Hilary Benn

Michael, thanks very much. Just a very quick point about process, if there are any MPs who haven't yet nominated….[laughter and applause]….I have got three blank forms in my pocket and I'll see you afterwards.

Why should you vote for me? Because as deputy leader I will champion a more straightforward kind of politics that's open and listens. Why do we need it? Because we have to take on the cynicism in our country that will otherwise destroy us. I will be the voice of the grassroots. Members want to be part of what the government does. Members want to be heard, they want to be listened to. I will work with you; I am not interested in divisive politics or points scoring.

I have some experience. I've been a constituency activist, I've been a deputy council leader, I've worked for a large trade union, I'm a member of Parliament, I am a cabinet minister. I will encourage local parties to reach out and get involved in their communities. Why do we need to do that? Because if people see Labour politics as being the way to solve their problems and to realise their hopes and aspirations for the future, they won't see politics as a remote business, they will see it as a part of natural life. Labour should be the natural place where people turn when they want to change things, because a party that does things, both locally and nationally, is a party that is going to go on winning elections.

And finally, I want us to be absolutely unapologetic about our values. They matter just as much as our policies and indeed they should shape them. And I want a country which acts on its concern about poverty, whether in Africa or in constituencies like mine in Leeds where the gap between rich and poor is the biggest challenge that we face. I want a society that places as much importance on our children, on our relationship one with another, as it does on economic stability. I want a politics in which we ask people to give something back, as well as to ask things of others. I want a culture in which we celebrate the things that people contribute, whether in public service, in community organisations, in business or elsewhere. I want a world where we put justice and working with others at the heart of our foreign policy. And I want – we want – a Labour government which not only redistributes wealth but redistributes power and opportunity because that is how we are going to build a fairer society. Thank you.

Alan Johnson

After that speech I'm tempted to give Hilary my nomination….[laughter and applause]. They do say Hilary that once you've nominated someone you can't take it back and you wouldn't be surprised to know I nominated me. Why did I do that? For the majority of my time, 33 years, in this party, we've been the party of opposition, and I believe that we are more comfortable as the party of government in the sense that we've realised that it's only by long periods in government that you can truly transform society to meet our objectives which are a more equal society, greater equality and the eradication of poverty. And we've achieved government and maintained government by occupying the middle ground, the centre ground of politics, and then shifting it to the left. And I believe we vacate that territory at our peril. And I believe that if we do hold onto that territory, this process, this transition to a new leadership team, can really help our party to renew ourselves, to provide a fresh, reinvigorated face to the public – because I think we need that to win a fourth term in government.

Now, we are electing in this process a leadership duo. I nominated Gordon Brown because I believe he is by far the best person to convince the public that we'll have a party of substance that can take them through difficult times, with climate change, with international security, with energy security, with demographic change and pensions. And I believe that I want to be deputy leader because I believe that I can bring something to the show. I think my skills, my experience, my background will help. I think the differences between us won't be on policy so much as on the role of the deputy leader. I believe the deputy leader has to be supportive of the leader, so to a large degree you work out what the job description is with the leader and you deputise for the leader. I believe it's really essential to be that conduit between the leadership and all parts….between the cabinet and all parts of the Labour movement. I think it's crucial to solve the problems of declining membership – this is a slightly bigger audience than my CLP and most CLPs we attend, we need to change that.

But most importantly and most emphatically we need to have a strategy to win the next general election and remain the party of power rather than slip back into the futility of opposition. [Applause]

Harriet Harman

Thank you Michael. Camberwell and Peckham, the constituency which I represent, is a hard-pressed inner city constituency and when I was first elected for all to see you could see the poverty, the inequality, the prejudice, the unemployment and I couldn't do anything about it. None of us could do anything about the things we cared about until we got into government. We got into government because we really listened to what people were saying and because we really built up the party and we put out a plan for government that showed things that would help and improve and make a difference in people's lives, and because we won support from women as well as men and from the south as well as the north. And 10 years on we need to renew the party, we need to do all of those things again, and we're picking a new leadership team to take that forward.

Now, I think the chances are that there might not be an election for leader, but you are clearly spoilt for choice when it comes to the deputy, that is evident. So just in a spirit of helpfulness may I suggest a few things you might bear in mind when choosing your next deputy leader. Firstly, we're choosing a team. We all know the leader is going to be a man – do we really need another man to be deputy leader? [some murmurs of agreement and applause]. Labour is the party of equality, we believe in men and women working together. And how would we feel, how would we look, if we chose an all male team and Cameron chose a woman as his deputy? We need to be strong in Scotland, Wales and throughout England. Now, in my 25 years in politics I've campaigned all over, but I'm from the south. I think you need in a deputy action not words. Not just being able to talk about things but being able to produce stuff. New laws on domestic violence, more women Labour MPs, a national minimum wage, a human rights act, maternity payment leave doubled, the national child care strategy. The things I campaigned for, we've been able to put into action, and when it comes to building a party my own party in Camberwell and Peckham we've really built up the membership so we've got 700 active campaigners members now. I would just say to you that if you want a winning team, then have Gordon for leader and me his deputy. [Applause]

Hazel Blears

I might be the last speaker, Michael, but I can promise you this is no indication of the final outcome. Now, I'll say something right at the start here, I think it's absolutely essential we conduct this contest in a spirit of comradeship and [community] and I have absolutely no doubt that's exactly what we're going to do. I'm on a top table here with people who are the greatest talents in our movement and I'm absolutely delighted that the party's got such a choice.

But like all of you I am sick of tired people actually putting us into separate camps. So let's end it right here – no more Blairites, no more Brownites, just Labour because we're all….[applause]. In case anybody hasn't noticed, Granita is shut. The brilliant turnout we've got tonight shows me there's a huge thirst for debate in the party. You've all got a hot ticket tonight because I've seen the waiting list. But you know, it really is a big choice. It's about electing a team that can go on to win the next election and I think that the deputy leader should be Labour's campaigner in chief – motivating, enthusing, leading the charge, out there on the streets in our estates. I don't believe the deputy leader should be the deputy prime minister. I think this is a vital Labour party job, elected by the members, not an add-on to some prestigious government department; and this is no weekend job, it's going to be a full time job to get us to win us that next election.

I'm Labour through and through, and I've always put Labour first. I am loyal to our leadership because I believe that unity and loyalty are how you win trust with the public and it's also how you win elections. But make no mistake. I'm nobody's fool and I will fight all the way for the things I believe in. I grew up in Salford in the 50s and 60s, my dad was a fitter in a factory and was an AUU shop steward, my mum was a secretary for the electricians union, they left school at 14, my brother drives a Manchester bus. I don't need a sociologist to talk to me about white working class: I did it the hard way, and that makes you pretty tough.

And if I could sum up the attitudes and values of working class families in this country it would really be this: it's about ambition. And it's ambition not just for themselves but for their communities. It's to get a better house, a better job, make a better neighbourhood and to have a better future for the next generation. I've never met a miner who wanted his son to be a miner, and that's why I believe that Labour should be the party of ambition and success, giving people the chance to work, the powers to tackle crime and anti-social behaviour, driving up standards in inner city schools so the middle class don't opt out and leave the area. Ambition, success – but also fairness. Labour values and the values of the British people.

I think the deputy leader should focus ruthlessly on winning the fourth term, especially in marginal seats in London and the southeast. Focused on recruiting that new generation of activists because activism is how you win elections. And finally, use every platform to attack the Tories. David Cameron's not going to have an easy ride over the next six months because we're all going to be out there fighting David Cameron and the Tories. [Applause and cheers]

MW

Great start, excellent. We'll start at the front….

Question

What I want to ask is, Labour has got a shortlist for all women. Are you going to try and have a shortlist for ethnic minorities because Labour talks about equality a lot and a shortlist on that would help?

Question

Would you take steps to end the educational apartheid of selection at 11+, which still exists in over 10% of England but not, happily, in Scotland and Wales? [applause]

MW

That's a topical question because David Cameron and David Willets have just given up on grammar schools today. Right, who wants to go first? Volunteer…Right, Hazel, you can't stop her….

H Blears

Shortlists for BME. I think we're moving in that direction. At the last NEC meeting we were talking about [Ealing Southall] and making sure that we get the right result there. We haven't got the rules yet because it's the law but I think we need more black and ethnic minority people – not just as MPs but as councillors, MEPs, in every walk of public life, if we don't look like this country at the next election the Tories will steal a march on us and I'm not having that.

JC

I agree with Hazel. I think that's where we're heading and I think it would be a good idea if we did. One point which has been a slight problem with all women shortlists is the transparency in terms of decision making around the NEC in terms of which seats are appropriate for shortlists. But I will be welcoming it, I think we're heading in that direction and it is a timely intervention.

MW

11+?

JC

I'm against selection on the basis of ability.

MW

Would you go after it and close them down with a stilito?

JC

No I don't think so. I think the objective is to build and support local community comprehensive schools but I don't think you can abolish them overnight and I don't think we should do because they're a small proportion of it and we should be building around every child….

PH

When I was in charge of Northern Ireland - I handed it over gracefully to Ian Paisley and Martin McGinness now – but when I was in charge I abolished the 11+ right across Northern Ireland. [applause]. An exam – two one-hour tests in this case – deciding a child's future at the age of 10 or 11, that is not a socialist principle, it's certainly not a Labour value. So that's what I did when I had the opportunity to do it. And frankly seeing the Tories wriggling and squirming on their policy today, trying to desperately claw back on the ground that we have conquered in the centre of British politics around education policy, has been extremely interesting and all the divisions have been caused as a result.

On all women shortlists, I'm a strong believer in all women shortlists, I supported them in Wales when it was extremely unpopular in 1997. I supported it again in 2005 when we got record number of women represented in Wales. When we didn't have all women shortlists in 2001 we got 10 male retirees but not one woman replacing those 10 men. So this is a policy that has to be taken forward.

On black and ethnic minority representatives, we are proud that we've got more than anybody else but we do not have enough representatives for Labour representing black and ethnic minority communities. So I think we need more ethnic shortlists where that is appropriate?

MW

Secretary of State for Education?

AJ

I think this is one of these issues about grammar schools, existing grammar schools, of course we've stopped any further selection through the front door, back door, the attic door because we made the admissions code something that had to be adhered to rather than previously where schools had to have regard to it. Back door approaches, i.e. judging children on the basis of their parents' profession etc. now when it comes down to this crucial issue, this is one of those issues where I think that during this debate we have to be aware that the public are watching us as well as the party. For our party audience, if you said, yes, we will ban those grammar schools where they exist at the moment it would get a round of applause. The reason why the national policy forum who discussed this at length have not gone to that step is quite simple: we would lose Gloucester, we would lose Slough. The people who are telling us that are MPs in those areas who fiercely oppose selective education, so this is the real cardinal poing, if we want to carry out our policies we have to be in power and we have to be aware in deciding our policies what that will do for our chances of being elected to government. Real politik. [applause].

HH

I agree with Alan and John about education. In relation to the black Asian and minority representation in the House of Commons, as a matter of principle we absolutely have to have more Labour black, Asian minority ethic MPs, and it's wrong that we get such voting support from black Asian ethnic minority communities but they're still unrepresented in the parliamentary Labour party. We need something like four times more black, Asian and minority ethnic MPs for the House of Commons to be representative as it's supposed to be. I'm a strong supporter and always have been of all women shortlists and I'm not sure whether all black Asian and minority ethnic shortlists is actually the right way to go. We've got, for example, in Gloucester, the very excellent member of Parliament Parmjit Dhanda but there is not a significant black Asian and minority community in that seat and therefore I'm not sure that all black Asian and ethnic minority shortlists is the way to go, but I do think we ought to have a target across the board and we ought to aim to achieve that target. And I think for our black Asian and minority ethnic MPs who actually are in parliament at the moment, we should shine a bigger spotlight on them. We have David Lammy, we have Parmjit Dhanda, we have Dawn Butler. We have fantastic black Asian and minority ethnic MPs and yet Cameron is putting forward his one candidate, who's not even an MP, his black candidate in London. So we've got to be proud of the black Asian and minority representation we've already got in the House of Commons and that is already in our councils. We've got to quadruple the number of MPs and we've got to shine a spotlight on them. [applause]

H Benn

I'm a very strong supporter of all women shortlists. We should be ashamed, in fact, that in Rwanda 48% of their parliament are women, in Afghanistan it's 25% and we are only at a fifth. And it needs to change. I have to say I agree with Harriet about black and ethnic minority shortlists because I am old-fashioned and believe that people should be judged on the content of their character and not the colour of their skin. On the 11+ I think it's terrible that children should be told at the age of 11 when they open an envelope that they are failures. Because we are still dealing with the legacy of that educational system. It's why the comprehensive reform was a popular revolution that has never been rolled back in any part of the country where it came out and if it was down to me as a parent to vote I would vote to end selection. We have a mechanism in place to do that and I'm in that sense with Alan when he says we should allow people to take those decisions locally. But let's be absolutely clear, when you tell people they're not good at 11, don't be surprised when they don't fulfil their potential. What are we interested in as a party? Enabling very human being to fulfil their potential. [Applause].

MW

Thank you. Martin McGuiness failed his 11+ and became a butcher's boy. Expensive failure that one. [laughter] We now move on to the first theme, how does the Labour party build a better democracy in Britain. The expert panel from Fabians and Progress have picked some questions. Tom Freeman, if you're in the room and still awake, can you read us your question.

Question

How will you refresh the parts that Gordon Brown can't reach?

Question

I had to mention Lambeth because we had a fabulous victory last year [applause]. How would you convince women who are doubtful that they should vote for the Labour party?

Question

Is the time now right for electoral reform?

AJ

The first one's easy – how do you refresh the parts that Gordon Brown doesn't reach. There are no parts that Gordon Brown can't reach [laughter]. On the second point about women. I think it's a bit of a myth that women are going over to Cameron. There's certainly some polling evidence that in some parts of the country that's true but our record of what we've done for women and the kind of arguments that Harriet's been making for years, the stuff we took through on work and families, the minimum wage which helped women fundamentally, the equalisation of rights between part time and full time workers – all of this is crucial. We have much more to do and the Women and Work Commission pointed out some of the problems that women still face and the reasons why full time women only get 80% of the pay men get, part time women only 60%. So I think we have to be absolutely clear about what we've done. And I also think we shouldn't treat women as a homogenous group. All the other issues matter to women just as much. So I really am optimistic about what we can do there. On electoral reform, is the time right, I've been a supporter of PR for 32 years and sometimes it's difficult, sometimes it isn't easy, it's hard at the moment within the party because of what's happened in Scotland and Wales in particular. So the tide comes in and the tide goes out, it's out at the moment but I actually believe the Jenkins Report was a very very good crystallisation of the issues that put forward a way to do this. I think it's going to be a time before we get the chance to actually return to that issue but one day undoubtedly we will.

HH

Well obviously I agree with Alan that there are no parts that Gordon Brown can't reach, we were all going to say that. But I do think you need a team with a broad reach and probably this isn't the right way to put it but people are comfortable, have got different comfort zones and I would say possibly that Gordon is Radio 4 and I'm Radio 2. And as far as women in politics is concerned, I think women in the Labour party, I think we have to show women in the country as a whole that politics is for women as well as men and that politics is not a men only business and it's not about what men do that help women, in this day and age women want to see women and men doing things that help women and men in this country. So representation is actually absolutely key. As far as electoral reform is concerned, I obviously want to see a very fair system but I think we need to have a simple system, a system which is absolutely clear to people, that they can understand not only once they put their vote on the ballot paper but how it actually translates into the person who's elected. And I think the trouble with the proportional voting systems is they are very complicated. So I'm not a big fan of proportional representation, I'm prepared to look at how it's worked in Scotland, Wales, for Europe London but I'm not saying we should rush ahead and do it for Westminster, far from it.

MW

[To JC] Radio Dagenham….

JC

I'd say Five Live….[laughter and applause]. I think a number of those questions cut to the real nuts of what this is going to be about over the next couple of months. It talked about it in terms of screen marginal seats when Hazel raises her issue in terms of her initial contribution. There are some real issues about whether the whole gearing of the voting system means that only a few thousand voters have real traction around the body politic because they've been identified as the key voters in swing marginal constituencies. And I think the debate we should have over the next couple of weeks should be a much more nuanced one about who's deserted the Labour party – four and a half million votes over the last few years – and how we can build a wide and deep coalition that doesn't simply seek to camp out ever more precisely on a very small party electoral landscape. And if we have that debate I think we can reintroduce a series of policies that can confront some of the material insecurities that are lying behind the reasons that people aren't voting Labour anymore, and that is to do with gender, it's to do with labour market insecurities, it's to do with patterns of migration, it's to do with ratcheting up pressure around access to low cost social housing. A whole series of policy initiatives go with the flow if we try to introduce some elements of our coalition that have arguably been disenfranchised over the last few years. So the issues around process, the issues about this mythical middle England and whether we can rebuild a party get to the quick of whether we can actually recapture millions of voters who've deserted us and feel that the Labour party has moved away from them. And that's what we need to join the dots again and get back to some of those concerns people have in their day to day lives. [applause].

H Blears

I was thinking I was GMTV. Refreshing the parts that Gordon can't reach. Well firstly I think that he's going to be extremely busy in Whitehall and in foreign policy, and I think the deputy leader has to be on the streets, in the communities, doing the job of building the party. So he can reach everybody but he's not going to have time to do it so somebody else is going to have to get out there and do it. Secondly, how can we get women on our side. I think it is about having a good record and being proud of everything we've done, we've got some of the best maternity rights in Europe, we've done a huge amount. People don't vote for that, they want to know what you're going to do next because that's the nature of politics. And there's a huge agenda there for us as women but we've got to get in touch, they've got to feel we're on their side and there are issues around child care but the big thing that's facing a lot of people out there is caring, caring for older people, caring for people with disabilities, looking after your mum and dad.

Electoral reform, I have to own up, I am not a fan. I've seen what's happened in Scotland. We got rid of a third of our councillors before we even went into the election in Scotland. I don't particularly like PR because what it does, it loses your constituency link and the thing that's guided me in 30 years of politics is knowing at the weekend I go home and people can call me to account and ask me questions on the street, and keeping that constituency link means that you are a politician who's in touch, grounded, you've got roots and I think that makes political life an awful lot more real for people. [applause]

MW

[To HB] The World Service….[laughter]

H Benn

I thought you were going to say Radio Leeds. On Gordon reaching the parts others can't reach, I just want to ask the question, that wasn't sponsored by Heineken was it?

I think about Gordon, who I've described as a serious politician for serious times, I think David Cameron's been looking at the TV and what Gordon's been doing over the last few days and he's beginning to realise what he's about to face and take on [applause]. On women, I think, do you know what really turns people off politics – and in my experience women in particular – is argy bargy, the ya boo, the points scoring and all of that nonsense which frankly gets in the way of the kind of politics we should believe in and espouse. Because women are intensely practical, they help to nurture families and communities and in the end….

Member of audience

Don't stereotype!

H Benn

….they want us to deal with the problems that they face. They want to know, if there's a problem, what are you going to do about it, if it's gone wrong what are you going to do to put it right? And I think that kind of politics is a much better way of dealing with decisions and women, as Harriet said, women want to be part of making those decisions on an equal basis with men and they want men to take their share in looking after their families too.

On electoral reform, well we have a chance with the House of Lords to see whether we want to use a different system. I am opposed to proportional representation of the House of Commons because we have to have a link with the constituency. I'm not in favour of two classes of MP – an MP who has a constituency and an MP who floats about and doesn't have a constituency. Because having a constituency keeps your feet on the ground and to have your feet on the ground you will be a better politician. [applause]

MW

[to PH] Right, I've thought about this…SC4

PH

It's S4C actually Michael, not that I can understand most of it. When my parents were put in jail in South Africa, radio was one of the few free channels of communication that kept the bleeding struggle alive, kept people knowing what they believed in and what was going on in the world.

On Tom's question, the biggest challenge we face, apart from building on Gordon's terrific start in the last few days, is rebuilding trust with the voters and reconnecting with the grassroots of society. And I think it's important that whoever fills this deputy leader post can appeal to all sections of the party, traditionalists and those in marginal seats, as I have done with all of those who are backing me right across the party, men and women whatever your views, bring people back together again, because I think there's a whole section of our party which is very disengaged. And unless we bring people back together, we will not win. And if we do bring people back together there's nothing that can stop us because we're such a powerful force.

On Anne's point, I agree with many of the points that have been made by Harriet and by Alan and by Hazel but I think it's very important that we select a deputy leader who will complement Gordon Brown and help us to win. And the question you have to face is who will help us win and rebuild that trust with the electorate, who will communicate best with the electorate, particularly in the marginal seats in middle Britain. And there's a big agenda still to be tackled to make sure we get equal opportunities in the work place, to make sure we have flexible working patterns, to make sure we have wrap around child care right through the day so that parents who wish to work – especially women who often bear the burden of child care – are able to work.

I think many many women, and men for that matter, are desperately worried about housing. They're worried about housing, what their house might be, they're worried about how their children can find any opportunity to get on the housing ladder and find a house to rent.

On electoral reform, I've never believed in proportional representation, I don't agree with Alan on that. I wrote a book 20 years ago called Proportional Misrepresentation and the reason is that I think the fundamental point is that you have to have a link to your local constituency. If your local voters don't like you, they can get rid of you. For that reason I will favour electoral reform the alternative vote where you vote one, two, three and at least you have to have at least 50% of the votes to get elected. And only a third of us in Parliament at the moment, in all parties, have more than 50% of the vote. I'm opposed to proportional representation but in favour of the alternative vote because it retains the single constituency.

Question

What do you think the role is of the local communities?

Question

What about trade unionists, how are we going to encourage more working people to join the trade union and take part in that democracy, that way round?

HH

First building the support of Labour in local communities, I think we've got to recognise and value much more Labour in local government. We talk a lot about communities, we talk about neighbourhoods, we talk about empowering people at the local level, but too often that's been ignoring local government, and particularly Labour in local government. And one of the things that I think we've done is that we've allowed the Tories in local government to claim the credit in their local communities for a lot of things that Labour in government has done. [applause].

MW

Example?

HH

Well if a SureStart centre opens, if there's a new school building, if there are free bus passes. We thought that if we did these things people would see that Labour had done them and they would think that was great and that would build support for Labour. We should have had, like they have red diesel, we should have a red pound so that the new GP centre goes red, so that the tax credit that goes into people's letter boxes goes red. At a local level we should have worked with Labour councillors instead of then seeing in their local newspapers the Tories claiming credit for what Labour has actually done in government.

As far as trade unions is concerned is that I think the work that trade unions do in the workplace, backing people up if they're unfairly treated, negotiating to secure flexibility of work and to ensure better pensions, work that trade unions do to back up individual men and women in the workplace is one of the best kept secrets in the country and I think we should be brave and bold and start saying that again.

H Benn

I think the biggest issue for local communities is for people to feel they have some influence over what happens in their lives because in a world where sometimes people feel that all the power is ebbing away to Europe and globally they want to know that they can decide how they're going to be policed and what kind of services are going to be provided. And I think the way to help people come to terms with globalisation is to give communities that say. We must be unashamed to be prepared to hand power down.

On trade unions, Harriet is absolutely right. Trade unions are a really important part of our civil society and the need for trade unionism, the helping hand of the people, is just as great now as it was the beginning of the 19th century. But we also have to tell the truth. The biggest challenge that the trade union movement faces is not the legislation on the statute book but getting out there to persuade people that trade unionism is that helping hand. Many people haven't been asked to join a union so that they can be members and build the strength of that presence in the workplace and to help men and women deal with the problems of work because whatever the law says we need someone to help us achieve our rights and the trade union movement is an enormous protection to every single one of us.

MW

[to H Blears] Which trade union are solicitors part of?

H Blears

Well, a lot of solicitors belong to the Law Society which is probably the best trade union in the world – restrictive practices and negotiation…

Local communities. I think it's absolutely essential that the Labour party is embedded in local communities. I remember when I was a candidate in 1992 in Bury South and I'll tell you there the local community had been utterly overtaken by Tories. Wherever you looked, whether it was the CAB or the voluntary groups, the youth clubs, the mums and toddlers groups – Tories everywhere. One of the reasons we won in 97 was we changed the values in that local community level and we had Labour people running those local organisations, being with the people who shared our values. And my big worry now is the Tories are starting to encroach onto this ground. Who's running the WRVS, who is running the CAB, who is running those charity groups? It's absolutely essential for us in electoral terms that we get back into those communities and they see the Labour party doing something. Labour students are going out doing community clean ups, they're not sitting in meetings talking to each other. And unless the Labour party is seen out there doing something, not talking in meetings, we're in trouble.

Trade unions. I joined a trade union before I joined the Labour party, shop steward, branch chair, the whole lot. But trade unions have got to have a more relevant offer for people. We've got a Labour government, membership should be booming, but it's stagnant. I think one of the best things trade unions can offer, as well as protecting people, is their learning offer. Trade union learning reps are some of the most popular people because people want to get on and that life-long learning offer, trade unions can often reach people and talk to them about education in a way that the traditional education system never will. I think trade unions, like the Labour party, have got to be relevant and accessible if it's actually going to….[applause].

MW

[to AJ] Who runs the WRVS in Hull?

AJ

The WRVS….a man called John Kelly, why?

On the issue of communities can I just make one passing reference. You know the success of Sure Start being established in deprived areas was that communities felt it was bottom up. The down side of that is they don't feel it comes from the government. In a sense its downside is its success. We've done a lot in terms of making our democracy healthier – devolution, the GLA, raising the age at which a candidate can stand to 18 – but this decentralisation and devolution to the regions has kind of ground to a halt. So you have a situation now where lots of money goes to regional development agency but people don't feel they have a democratic input into how that money is spent. And I think this is the big idea as to how we take that agenda further and how we allow social enterprises etc to have much more ability to influence their society.

On the trade union movement, two important things have to be said. Peter mentioned Northern Ireland and as he knows the trade union movement in Northern Ireland is virtually the only non-partisan voice. The bravery of trade unionists in standing up to sectarian violence was extraordinary. And now, in this country, it's trade unions that are seeking to ensure that EU migrants are properly treated when the temptation must have been to take a different route. The courage of trade unions, and their central role they play in a mature democracy, needs to be recognised. They felt, in John Monks' famous words, they were treated like embarrassing elderly relatives by this government in its first term, and that has to stop. We also have to stop trade union leaders treating us like recalcitrant mill owners because we're not. So there needs to be a much better dialogue. And we need to ensure that people understand that trade unions are a fundamental part of democracy. That involves trade unions being involved in decision making in the company, not when everything goes wrong and they need trade unions help to put it right, but on a week in week out basis involving workers in their future in the company. We've never quite established that, we had industrial democracy experiments in the 70s, we've got information consultation now, but it's not really changing anything at the workplace. And that would be a very good area to look at.

PH

I would say in addition on local communities, Nye Bevin expressed for me what the Labour party is all about, it's about empowering people, empowering individuals and giving power away to local communities and individuals. And we've got to do much more of that, decentralising to local governments and below at neighbourhood level as well. But there's relevance for the party here, and I agree very much with what Hazel said. We've got to have our councillors getting out and working their streets on the doorstep and getting under the radar of a relentless media assault from the Tories and a climate in which it's almost impossible to discuss Labour ideas, but to get out into the communities and really campaign hard and win back all that ground which has been eroded over recent years. And that involves empowering from government as well.

On trade unions, like Hilary and Alan, I've been a full-time trade union official. Let me make two points here. One, they are all in the party it seems to me is non-negotiable. The unions set up the party, they are entitled to an important role in the decision making of the party and I do not agree with undermining that. I think we must have a much better relationship and partnership and proper negotiations between government and trade unions in which trade unions realise that not all of their demands immediately or all conceded, but at least there's a proper negotiation which doesn't always happen, especially in recent years which has led to a lot of disengagement. Another comment about what is happening in Britain. There's a two tier labour market of people on the bottom tier who are not organised, dreadfully exploited, often working for agencies, and our employment rights we legislated for are not being enforced, and we have to have much more active mechanisms including, I believe, an employment commission to enforce those rights, to give individuals who are not getting the rights to which they are entitled properly represented. We've got to do this in a different way. [applause].

JC

I think this devolution issue is absolutely central. My borough in east London can't build any council houses but it's the outstanding problem in our borough. The other one is that we resisted the imposition of an academy and we were taken off the programme for the schools…

MW

We'll come back to that. I should have stopped you, I made a mistake…Steph Charalambous. We've now moved on to increasing life chances in Britain….

Question

I'm 22, just starting a job in October, just wondering how you'll help me afford a house. don't worry about me too much, worry about the families of London and the southeast.

Question

I want to know what role city academies and grammar schools can have in the educational policy of a renewed Labour government

Question

My question was, would any of you be prepared to tackle faith schools? [applause]

JC

The issue of academies is actually central to the issue of devolution. I think we have to look at some of the initiatives over the last few years which have actually centralised public policy making. I'll give you the example of academies in our area, a sixth form academy, which we resisted because it would take a lot of, especially white working class boys, out of the sixth forms and we said no and had a good thorough proper debate. A few weeks later we were taken off the capital programme of building schools…the two were linked because we would not accept the imposition of the academy. I've got problems with the preoccupation for structures around the academy programme, you know comprehensive approach of every child matters, and it's fracturing local partnerships which are actually achieving some outstanding results in our area. So I have a problem with academies but I also have a problem with the way the capital programme is being used to help those boroughs who are embracing such initiatives and are undermining the strategy of those that won't and I think that's wrong in principle.

In terms of housing, the outstanding issue, in London we've had 100,000 added to the council allocation transfer list since 2004. it's the outstanding issue and there's a danger of us having a collective amnesia here because for the last four years of Labour party conference I've spoken on a number of platforms about the fourth option in council housing and we still have resisted it. Unless we create a level playing field in terms of capital funding and allowing councils to build council housing we're not going to get over this because there are escalating supply side problems, there's a chronic market failure around housing and unless we remove the ideology and embrace pragmatic, devolved solutions around public provision we're not going to get out of this problem. [applause]

MW

Faith schools?

JC

I'm a product of comprehensive Catholic education as is every one of my family. I think in my borough we have them interlinked into a robust partnership with the local authority, with all of the other primary and secondary schools, which actually has achieved the largest increase in A to Cs of any borough since 97. it's a model that works and I think if we just focus in on attacking faith schools, politically that's disadvantageous to us and also I think it's focusing on the wrong issue which is raising the long tail of underachievement, especially amongst white working class males…[applause]

PH

I reflected as Sec of State for Northern Ireland where I'm trying to break down segregation in education [applause]. To bring people together, not least because there's falling school roles and there's a rise in integrated education. But I would not have started here, but we are where we are. And there have been faith schools for both Anglicans and Catholics now for generations and, once that's the case, I don't see how you can deny other faiths the right to have faith schools as well.

On housing, on the question of city academies and grammar schools, the party's policy on grammar schools is set and I'm not for revisiting that, it's subject to local accountability. I'd just say that where I had the opportunity in Northern Ireland I decide to abolish the 11+. It doesn't mean to say that grammar schools go, it does mean to say that selection goes and selection on a basis of any kind. I do not agree with that, I do not think that's a proper Labour policy. But I also believe in introducing specialist schools and more local controls, there are different models of how to do that.

On Steph's question about housing. I'm particularly pleased that Gordon has made one of his initial policy commitments eco-towns and really getting much more affordable housing. There are really two areas you've got to tackle. You've got to allow people to get on the housing ladder by mixed equity schemes, by building homes also on public land where it's the cost of the house that is for sale or the cost of the house that is for rent, and by building much more social housing whether it's councils or housing associations we will not conquer the housing crisis unless we deal with that and unless we deal with the problem where all new housing pretty well is being bought up on a buy to let basis which is destroying the opportunities of so many young people and so many people on low incomes right across the length and breadth of Britain.

H Blears

On housing, I think it's as important now as in 1945 and it isn't just London and the southeast but right across the country, wherever you go now people are really struggling, very often young people are living at home with mum and dad into their early 30s because they can't afford anywhere to live. And there are a few things we can do: we need to build more houses to get up 200,000 a year, we're nowhere near that yet, we need to look at lower shared equity so you can just buy a very small proportion and as you go on you can buy more. I think we do need to look at some of the tax incentives and tax disincentives that around buy to let. Stamp duty is a big issue, I'm not making stamp duty policy here but it is a big issue….

MW

No, Gordon says you're not…[laughter]

H Blears

I agree with John here, I don't think we should be having an ideological divide on housing, I think we should be saying what works, good local authorities you are excellent in lots of fields, not building huge estates like in the past but small developments where people want to live I think's very important.

City academies, the question was, should city academies have a place in Labour's policy. City academies are not grammar schools. I think city academies are a fantastic way of actually getting a culture of learning in some of the poorest communities in Britain. [applause] I went to a grammar school, my brother didn't – he failed the 11+, he drives a bus, I'm in the cabinet….I don't like grammar schools [laughter]. What they did at my grammar school was they had a culture of learning and I did things in that school that, coming from my background, I'd never have dreamt of doing. I did Latin. Now city academies, we've got one in Salford that I've been to visit recently. It's on the toughest council estate in Salford. On a Thursday, I said: "what do you do?" And they said, "on a Thursday we have enrichment….the army come in, we've been skiing, we've been to the ballet." They've done all these things they'd never dreamt of doing. And half the kids in the academy think they'll go to university. When I was growing up I was the only person in my school class who got onto higher education and half the kids now want to do it so city academies, I can't say how brilliant they're going to be. [applause]

Faith schools. I'll just give you one quick example. I've got a huge orthodox Jewish community in my constituency. Most of the girls went to private school because they wouldn't participate in the ordinary system, so they didn't get national curriculum, they didn't get a decent education. I spent the last five years getting them into the maintained sector. They're never going to go to a mixed community school, they wanted a Jewish school, but we got them into the maintained sector and what we've done is linked that orthodox Jewish school which is very strict faith but we've linked it with the other schools in our community, so there's not segregation, people are getting experience of different faiths and backgrounds. It's something I'm very proud of because before that they were stuck away in a place not learning the things that other children got a chance to learn and now it's really revolutionised their education. So faith schools, I'm not going to attack them – I think they've got a good role to play – but what we mustn't have is segregation of communities where people do not understand and do not share the same values. [applause]

H Benn

On housing it's very clear that we need more affordable housing because a rising population, economic success, relationship breakdown, the buy to let market is putting enormous pressure. And just in the eight years I've been a member of parliament for Leeds central I've seen things move from a time when the council was pulling down council houses and when advertising to rent today, if you'll come along and occupy one – the trouble was they were in communities where nobody wanted to live – to now where many families wonder, will their children be able to live near there? And frankly all the options should be on the table.

On faith schools, would I shut them down? No I wouldn't because they're part of our history, they're part of the reason many of us have universal education. Many people in our community and in our country want people to be educated and brought up in their faith. What really matters about schools if the ethos, whether they're church schools or not church schools, but we've got to learn to live alongside each other in this world.

On city academies, I just reflect on my experience in my constituency. Shortly after I was elected one of the head teachers in south Leeds said to me: "you know Hilary my students are no less intelligent than anyone else but what they desperately lack is self-confidence and aspiration." In Leeds you have cheek by jowl the symbols of economic success – the cranes on the skyline in the city centre, the new flats, the development the jobs – and people are living a mile and half away but they could be living on another planet when it comes to their sense of their part of the success of Leeds. And what is the key to change? It is education, and I have to tell you, based on my experience, we must leave no stone unturned in trying to ensure we bring out the potential that is within every single boy and girl in our schools so they have the chance of a better life. That's why from the beginning of our movement, we talked about trade unions earlier, agitate and organise – what was the word in the middle? – educate because we know that leads to a better life. And we should try all the approaches that we can to tap all of the talent of all our children. [applause].

HH

There's not enough housing and there's not enough affordable housing and it's not just London, it's all around the country. And we do have it on our mugs, on our pledge cards in 97 but we need it to be a priority now. And I think we can have a bit of electoral competition on this, I mean David Cameron is nothing if not a complete opportunist. If we said that we were going to say, for example, build 200,000 more council houses, he would pop up and say 'we will build 200,001. so I think that we need to get it right smack bang in the middle of the political agenda where it hasn't been because it's fundamental to equality and opportunity – you can't have that if people are in overcrowded and poor housing conditions.

When it comes to the education points, in relation to city academies, I think the most important thing is that people want a good local school in their neighbourhood that they can send their children to. And I think in relation to specialist schools, I think it's quite difficult to know, say you've got three children, when one is 10, how do you know as a parent if they're going to be a great linguist or a great sportsperson or a great musician or a great scientist. I think it's quite hard to pick what specialty your child is going to have at the age of 10. if you've got three children and one seems to be very good at science at 10 or languages, and you've got them going to three different schools, how can you as a parent work in partnership with the school? It's more difficult if your children are going to different schools. I think that what people want is a good local school…[applause]…in their neighbourhood. And I think the choice agenda arose when the Tories had let the state schools fall into such disrepair that people wanted to choose to get away from the local failing school. So I think we should just have good standards in all schools and that means focusing not just on structures….we used to have this slogan 'it's standards, not structures' and I agree with that, particularly teaching and the leadership of head teachers.

As far as faith schools is concerned, it's very much a question of context and what the effect of faith schools in northern Ireland was to cement and reinforce division within the community and that is obviously clearly a major problem. There are some existing church schools in this country which actually have young people from different ethnic backgrounds and they actually come to school and meet each other in a way that they don't necessarily otherwise. So there are some faith schools that can be a force for community cohesion. But in terms of new faith schools, I'm not in favour of arguing, just because we've got some faith schools all faiths should somehow have equality and be allowed to have their own schools [applause]. You have to look at the context and ask yourself the question, what is really fundamental is good standards for local children and cohesive communities and those are the principles on which you've got to make your decisions. [applause]

I think you apply that question across the board and you say if there's an application for a new faith school in the local area is it going to be a force for social cohesion or not. Your approach to education is about the individual children in that neighbourhood and also about it being a force for social cohesion. It wasn't in Northern Ireland and we've got divided communities in different parts of this country and I think the priority is social cohesion and we must make sure that social cohesion contributes to that and doesn't pull apart from that.

I would say in relation to the young Jewish girls that Hazel was talking about, if there's a need for a girls school then there can be a girls school, it doesn't need necessarily to be a mixed school. To practically think that people are not getting the standard of education they need in private schools, the national curriculum should be extended to private schools. I think we've just got to look at it on that basis.

MW

[to AJ] A young think-tanker to me said today: "The Labour party as well as the Tories are too complacent about admissions policy."

AJ

I don't think we are complacent about admissions policy, but, look, if we want our manifesto at the next election to be the shortest suicide note in history, just way we're going to ban grammar schools, faith schools….[applause]. On grammar schools, there's nothing between us. On faith schools and academies, let me tell you I absolutely believe that faith schools are an important attribute for our education system. And the debate around faith schools last year wasn't really about Roman Catholic schools and Anglican schools – where we have incidentally had an agreement with both that 25% of all places in the new schools will be open to children of no faith and other faiths – it was about Muslim schools. And what we're trying to do here is take 120 Muslim schools that are in the independent sector - outside the national curriculum, outside proper Ofsted inspection - and bring them into the state sector. We cannot say to the Muslim community it's ok to have Catholic schools and Anglican schools and Jewish schools but not Muslim schools. [applause]. Therefore the argument is how we promote community cohesion with faith schools. And we've reached a very important agreement with all the faith communities. Muslim schools incidentally want to have 25% of their places open to people of no faith or other faiths. Their problem is the way that Muslim state schools are portrayed which means that parents don't want to send their children there. What arose from that discussion was this important principle that we write into law that every school, faith and non-faith, new and existing, have to pursue community cohesion and Ofsted will inspect on that basis. It comes in in September. That means schools twinning with each other, that means exchanging pupils with schools that are not from that faith, and that is a far more progressive way forward than having a debate about banning faith schools.

The final point I want to make on the academy. I want to know about John's issue with PSF, I'd really like to look into that. We are rebuilding and refurbishing every single secondary school in the country and of course the things that are happening in academies should happen in all schools. Dance and music and drama are just as important, that's why it will be extended to every school by 2010. But look on the issue of academies, which was part of our manifesto commitment, we are giving communities that had the worst of everything in terms of education, where generations were let down disgracefully by complacency about, well what do you expect for their children….this was something that was inherent in our system and now we're saying those communities will have the best of everything. And you know it has a galvanising effect. Not every school will be an academy – the most we'll have is 400 out of something like 3000 secondary schools – but the galvanising effect of that, along with all the other issues, is really important. A final point on academies: they do need to link in better with the family of schools in the area absolutely, they need to be more integrated with what's happening with other schools in the area. But please, this has been a big success for parents and children in those areas and we ought to cherish it as one of our achievements rather than say it is some kind of mistake. [applause]

MW

Jean, would you like to give your commentary on what you've heard on behalf of your claque on the floor?

Questioner

I agree with Harriet Harman most of all, I think her views are closest to mine. I think to justify a situation by saying we have always had it is a very conservative attitude [applause]. I think that children should be educated by the state and not indoctrinated by taxpayers at the expense of the state. [applause]. If they want their children to be indoctrinated they should pay for it. I am perfectly willing to pay for a good state education for every child. Education means drawing out, it does not mean pouring in prejudice.

MW

You certainly didn't sit on the fence…[laughter]…you should get on the platform. The last three sections – creating global stability through foreign policy and tackling climate change…

Question

Should our civil liberties be subject to repeal in the face of international terrorism?

Question

Once the troops are home, should there be a full inquiry into the Iraq war, and if so, what form should that inquiry take?

Question

What have you don, both professionally and personally, to combat climate change?

MW

Peter, you're famous for your tan…[laughter]….I got mine in Scotland

PW

I got mine canvassing in the elections…

To start off with the question on climate change, obviously I recycle but I put [solar panels] on my constituency home in Leith. It costs quite a lot of money but I think it's essential….

MW

Do you get sun? [laughter]

PW

….partly as the result of climate change….

In Northern Ireland I put forward a new fund, £60m – which is equivalent to about £2bn across the United Kingdom – of investment to enable people to put three solar panels on the roofs of low income tenants in social housing. Big generous grants to enable people to put renewable micro-generation projects in because I think it's absolutely vital we make the fight against climate change an absolute priority. I've also given permission for the marine current turbine, the first of its kind in the world, to be installed in Stratford lock, which will be an enormous opportunity for energy of an entirely new kind.

On the question of civil liberties and the fight against terrorism, this is a crucial balance that we have to get right. I think too many liberties have been forsaken in the fight against terrorism. I do not agree with Guantanamo Bay….[applause]. And I also think in everything we do we've got to be vigilant in being tough about security, there's no question about that and modern forms of terrorism require new and tougher legislation and constantly adapting to fight new technology. We've got to be jealously guarding civil liberties along the way. For instance it was absolutely unacceptable for somebody heckling the foreign secretary to be ejected from the party conference and then to be detained under the Terrorism Act. [applause]

On the question about Iraq, there may well be a case for an inquiry after the troops have come home at some point…the problem with inquiries is they become a substitute for dealing with a divisive argument. We had inquiries by the fistful in the last few years, they've actually satisfied nobody. In the end you have to decide what you think was right about the future of Iraq and whether you agree with the original decision to invade…and was an incredibly difficult decision and one of the most difficult I've ever had to take as a member of the cabinet in support of Tony. But we'll live with the consequences. But don't feel the inquiry will deal with the difficulty of the issue. What we've got to do now is make sure that we're able to draw our troops down, allow the Iraqi forces to take control, leave Iraq in the most stable, democratic basis that we can leave it, but move forward not from where we would have like to have been but where we are now, which is a very very difficult position, and engage all the regional powers as well – Iran, Syria, the remaining Middle East powers – try to get a negotiated solution to the future of Iraq because there is no other future except a negotiated political solution.

MW

I wonder very briefly if I could ask you and the candidates on a very specific point. Where you stand on the detention of terrorist suspects, on the 28 days to 90 scale?

PH

The point about that policy and if you were going to change it is you've got to have judicial checks all the way along the road. Now the truth is you cannot extend beyond the existing limit, even for 28 days now, without getting a judge's permission to do so. What is absolutely essential, regardless of the period of detention, some of these investigations, because of their complexity, take a very long time because of their international character. So the most important thing for me is not necessarily if its' 28 days or a little longer or a little less. What matters is the judicial oversight, what matters is that we cannot just do this as a government – there has to be an independent judicial control over the whole thing which determines whether people's liberty should be curtailed for an investigation to be completed or whether the time is up to let them free.

AJ

On the question of civil liberties being subject to repeal, I just think we need to recognise that we are living difficult times and the biggest civil liberty for people is to be safe and secure from attack. And 10 years ago this wouldn't have been an issue, we wouldn't even have been debating it. Indeed there was a time of innocence during the terrorism of the 70s with the IRA when people used to ring up and give you a warning that there was a bomb. Now it's a completely different threat and we have to tackle it on the basis of, yes preserving our democracy – and I very much agree that eroding our democracy is actually a gift to the terrorists who by and large come from organisations that are not wedded to democratic principles. But we have to get this balance right. And when the security forces say to us in government and in the cabinet that these are issues which need to be addressed, and in order to tackle this problem effectively we need to do things differently from the past, then we have to listen. And I think Peter's absolutely right on the 28 days, we did build on those kinds of safeguards and we need to do that more widely.

On the full inquiry, I kind of think when the war's over and the troops are back, whether we want one or not, there probably will be one. There's been four inquiries of one kind or another already, what's going to happen in a new inquiry I don't know. We were all there I think on March 13 2003 when we took a decision in Parliament for the first time as I understand it – I think something happened in 1950 but not on the same scale – where it wasn't decided by royal prerogative. We have to examine our consciences as to whether that was right. But on one thing I'm clear. I've read the transcript of that debate and no one was in any doubt, on any side of the argument, that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction – that wasn't the debate, Germany and France felt he had weapons of mass destruction. The debate was about whether we give longer to the weapons inspectors with resolution 1441 actually saying that his time ran out three months before the debate. So we can have all the inquiries that we want, I think we're going to come to the same conclusion, particularly that the Butler Report identified, but I think there will be a mood for another inquiry, whether we like it or not.

On the question of what I've done professionally or personally…I haven't fitted anything to the house yet but I'm thinking about that…[laughter]…of course we need to change the planning laws to make that much easier. You know what I do which I'd say is my personal contribution, around Westminster I don't take a government car, I walk, because the idea that you need to take a car from Century Buildings in Great Peter Street to the House of Commons and then to go to the cabinet in 10 Downing Street…actually you can walk and it's quite healthy and quite good….

PW

A little more difficult when you're Secretary of State for Northern Ireland….

AJ

Well I'm an ex-postman Peter, so….[laughter]

HH

No we shouldn't repeal the Human Rights Act in the face of terrorist threat. Obviously we have to protect people's safety, that's an enormously important priority, but we have to protect people's liberties as well. And it's Tory propaganda to say you have to repeal the Human Rights Act. We can do both – protect people's security and protect their liberty and the Human Rights Act allows you to take steps to protect security but you've got to be absolutely sure that the steps you're taking are proportionate to the threats that you face. So the Human Rights Act encapsulates that balance that we need to strike.

Secondly, a full inquiry into the Iraq war. I think that when the troops do finally come home, which we all hope will be as soon as possible, there will need to be an inquiry and I think that we also need to look at the circumstances in which we went in but at the planning and preparation for the aftermath as well, and we will need to learn lessons from that.

As far as the environment is concerned, three things. As a minister when I was solicitor general, I developed the Environmental Justice Bill which will actually give local communities a real say in bringing to task people who pollute the local community. Unfortunately, it has not found its way into our legislative programme – if I'm deputy leader I very much hope it will. Secondly, as member of parliament working with the other MPs, with the local authority, with the community organisations, with the hospital and the chamber of commerce, we had a very important summit on climate changed which actually enabled us to look at what we could do on climate change from the community upwards. And as a person, in a way that I don't quite understand, I appear to have changed my electricity to eco electricity and I'm still working, in particular, on stopping my husband from leaving the water running while he's cleaning his teeth. [laughter]

MW

John, tell us the purpose of Mrs C's teeth cleaning. [laughter]

JC

I'm not going there [laughter]. My 14-year old forces us to embrace, in terms of recycling and a much more nuanced approach to the environment. I've been on a steep learning curve myself, and I think like everyone struggle to get the right mixture, but actually I always thought it was a bit of a hassle but not I'm quite embracing it, not seeing it as a series of penalties but seeing it as much more part of a completely different approach to living and sustainability which I'm very keen on.

On the war, I think there is a place for an inquiry as part of reconciliation with the British people over what's happened in Iraq…[applause]. And that has to centre around two issues: the basic premise, in terms of weapons of mass destruction, and second the stated objective of building a living democracy which palpably is not happening in terms of the sheer body count of Iraq. So therefore I do see the case for an inquiry as part of an overall reconciliation with the British people and actually we have an opportunity over the next few months with a new leadership to turn the page on this and acknowledge that it has been a disaster. [applause]

H Blears

In terms of human rights, I think one of the things that makes this country one of the best places to be is because we've got a really deep and really meaningful regard for the human rights of every single person in this country. Having been counter-terrorism minister for three years, I also know that the terrorist threat we face is of a scale and reach, different really from anything we've known before.

MW

Do you feel we don't get it, the rest of us?

H Blears

No, I don't feel you don't get it, I think people out there in the community understand it very well. And I think to get the balance right is important and if the balance is wrong at the moment – and the Human Rights Act has got some provisions in it that you can't derogate on, you can't change – and there's a court case going on in the Netherlands at the moment which is about the balance. We're actually intervening in that court case to see if we can get that balance right. There are literally probably several thousand people out there who are actively participating in terror plots in the country and I think our first and foremost responsibility in this country is to make sure people are safe and that people are not walking the streets who area threat to our national security. Yes, fundamental human rights. 28 to 90 days I think only if we've got a really good evidence base and we cannot get the evidence we need within the 28 days. We haven't had that so far and therefore we shouldn't necessarily go there. I'll tell you this, we have to be able to react quickly, flexibly and properly to be able to protect people's human rights. Judicial scrutiny, absolutely fundamental in terms to making sure the public think we've got that balance right.

In terms of an inquiry into the Iraq war, I think that probably if we hadn't had the Iraq war we would be the most popular government in living memory…[applause]…in many ways. Inquiries almost seem to be a default mechanism in this country now. That's a little bit about losing trust in politics, losing trust in the political process. I don't necessarily say let's have an inquiry, but I can almost understand people wanting inquiries because they don't feel that either parliament or the structures we've got are able to ventilate and allow people to ask the questions that they want to. I don't think inquiries necessarily come up with the answers people want, people sometimes want different answers.

In terms of climate change, a bit more cheerful than those two issues….[laughter]….

MW

Depends how much of a long-term view you take…[laughter]

H Blears

I read something in the papers the other day that said we're going to have the climate of Portugal within a few years and I know that's very poor to the future of the planet but the prospect of getting up on a wet November morning and having the climate of Portugal is quite attractive…

In professional terms, before climate change and the environment was the sexy issue it is now, as public health minister I brought in legislation to ban tobacco advertising and I hope that's going to contribute to the environment. Locally I have the company in my constituency that makes half the country's energy efficient light fittings and I've been promoting them….I think we should have a red light outside the ministry for justice [applause]. I've recently downsized my motorbike, I used to have a 600cc, now it's a 250cc….

MW

I've left Hilary Benn till last because this is an underdog's audience and he's three votes short so go for it….

H Benn

I think I'm one vote short now, so…[applause]….One of my team in the audience kept going like this to me…(indicates)

On climate change, I think like everyone else, coming to terms with trying to change the way in which we live, but it's work in progress. Professionally, it is the poorest part of the world, that did least to cause the problem, that is going to face the biggest threat. And believe you me, human beings will not stay where their crops shrivel and their cattle die, they're going to find somewhere else to live. And you can't ask for a better reminder of our interdependence as human beings at the beginning of the 21st century than the issue of climate change. We deal with this together. And I have to say there is no politician in the world who has done more to make the case for an international agreement that embraces every country of the world than the prime minister that is about to step down, and he deserves our….[applause].

Should our civil liberties be repealed…no of course they shouldn't be repealed but we have to strike a balance and we have to protect ourselves against those who would do us harm. Now, when the bombs went off in London on the 7th of July, two of the bombers came from my constituency, one of them worked as a learning support assistant at a primary school in my constituency, why they felt that the right way to deal with how they felt about the world was to put a bomb on their back, come to London and kill innocent Londoners of all nationalities, from all parts of the world, I will never understand and nor will the people of the communities of Leeds. But there are people who would do us harm, who would wish to impose their views on us as a result of violence. And we've just got to be very clear, as well as praising the police and security services who do an extraordinary job to protect us, in the end this is a battle of ideas and values. And the values that we believe in, the right to say what you think, the right to express a view about how you're going to be governed – these are not western values. You'll find it in the largest democracy in India, you'll find it in the largest Muslim population in Indonesia, you'll find it in Europe, in the United States of America. I think we just as a world should say, 'you're very much mistaken if you think we're going to give up those values because you choose to try and kill us out, because we won't give them up, they are what makes us the world that we love and know.'

Finally on Iraq, should we find a way of learning the lessons? Well, of course we should find a way of learning the lessons. But I think Peter was right, this is not in the end going to resolve how people feel about the issue. It divided the country, it divided families – it divided my family. I argued long and hard with my father about this but you know whether you were in favour or against, the task now is to support a fragile democracy in Iraq against suicide bombing [applause].

Just one other thing. What Iraq really raises for us is the very uncomfortable and difficult question. Because what did we did we do as a world when Saddam was at the height of his dictatorship, shooting dead in the head people who dared to express a different view and dumping their bodies in the dessert. What did we do when the Rwandan genocide claimed 600,000 lives in three months? What did we do in Kosovo, what did we do when the RUF and the Westside Boys were running around Sierra Leone cutting off people's arms with machetes? What did we do when the Taliban were killing teachers who were brave enough to say that every girl has the right to an education? And the truth is in the world at the beginning of the 21st century is that we haven't yet found the means to turn the Universal Declaration of Human Rights into protection for every citizen. And I want a United Nations that has the will and the capacity to do that, because, you know, if we can achieve that we will have a much much stronger argument by showing we can act multilaterally to say to those who would act unilaterally. Because in the end every human being deserves the right of that protection. We're one world, we're one family and we've got to make sure that happens.

a wide and deep coalition that doesn't simply seek to camp out ever more precisely on a very small party electoral landscape. And if we have that debate I think we can reintroduce a series of policies that can confront some of the material insecurities that are lying behind the reasons that people aren't voting Labour anymore, and that is to do with gender, it's to do with labour market insecurities, it's to do with patterns of migration, it's to do with ratcheting up pressure around access to low cost social housing. A whole series of policy initiatives go with the flow if we try to introduce some elements of our coalition that have arguably been disenfranchised over the last few years. So the issues around process, the issues about this mythical middle England and whether we can rebuild a party get to the quick of whether we can actually recapture millions of voters who've deserted us and feel that the Labour party has moved away from them. And that's what we need to join the dots again and get back to some of those concerns people have in their day to day lives. [applause].

H Blears

I was thinking I was GMTV. Refreshing the parts that Gordon can't reach. Well firstly I think that he's going to be extremely busy in Whitehall and in foreign policy, and I think the deputy leader has to be on the streets, in the communities, doing the job of building the party. So he can reach everybody but he's not going to have time to do it so somebody else is going to have to get out there and do it. Secondly, how can we get women on our side. I think it is about having a good record and being proud of everything we've done, we've got some of the best maternity rights in Europe, we've done a huge amount. People don't vote for that, they want to know what you're going to do next because that's the nature of politics. And there's a huge agenda there for us as women but we've got to get in touch, they've got to feel we're on their side and there are issues around child care but the big thing that's facing a lot of people out there is caring, caring for older people, caring for people with disabilities, looking after your mum and dad.

Electoral reform, I have to own up, I am not a fan. I've seen what's happened in Scotland. We got rid of a third of our councillors before we even went into the election in Scotland. I don't particularly like PR because what it does, it loses your constituency link and the thing that's guided me in 30 years of politics is knowing at the weekend I go home and people can call me to account and ask me questions on the street, and keeping that constituency link means that you are a politician who's in touch, grounded, you've got roots and I think that makes political life an awful lot more real for people. [applause]

MW

[To HB] The World Service….[laughter]

H Benn

I thought you were going to say Radio Leeds. On Gordon reaching the parts others can't reach, I just want to ask the question, that wasn't sponsored by Heineken was it?

I think about Gordon, who I've described as a serious politician for serious times, I think David Cameron's been looking at the TV and what Gordon's been doing over the last few days and he's beginning to realise what he's about to face and take on [applause]. On women, I think, do you know what really turns people off politics – and in my experience women in particular – is argy bargy, the ya boo, the points scoring and all of that nonsense which frankly gets in the way of the kind of politics we should believe in and espouse. Because women are intensely practical, they help to nurture families and communities and in the end….

Member of audience

Don't stereotype!

H Benn

….they want us to deal with the problems that they face. They want to know, if there's a problem, what are you going to do about it, if it's gone wrong what are you going to do to put it right? And I think that kind of politics is a much better way of dealing with decisions and women, as Harriet said, women want to be part of making those decisions on an equal basis with men and they want men to take their share in looking after their families too.

On electoral reform, well we have a chance with the House of Lords to see whether we want to use a different system. I am opposed to proportional representation of the House of Commons because we have to have a link with the constituency. I'm not in favour of two classes of MP – an MP who has a constituency and an MP who floats about and doesn't have a constituency. Because having a constituency keeps your feet on the ground and to have your feet on the ground you will be a better politician. [applause]

MW

[to PH] Right, I've thought about this…SC4

PH

It's 4C actually Michael, not that I can understand most of it. When my parents were put in jail in South Africa, radio was one of the few free channels of communication that kept the bleeding struggle alive, kept people knowing what they believed in and what was going on in the world.

On Tom's question, the biggest challenge we face, apart from building on Gordon's terrific start in the last few days, is rebuilding trust with the voters and reconnecting with the grassroots of society. And I think it's important that whoever fills this deputy leader post can appeal to all sections of the party, traditionalists and those in marginal seats, as I have done with all of those who are backing me right across the party, men and women whatever your views, bring people back together again, because I think there's a whole section of our party which is very disengaged. And unless we bring people back together, we will not win. And if we do bring people back together there's nothing that can stop us because we're such a powerful force.

On Anne's point, I agree with many of the points that have been made by Harriet and by Alan and by Hazel but I think it's very important that we select a deputy leader who will complement Gordon Brown and help us to win. And the question you have to face is who will help us win and rebuild that trust with the electorate, who will communicate best with the electorate, particularly in the marginal seats in middle Britain. And there's a big agenda still to be tackled to make sure we get equal opportunities in the work place, to make sure we have flexible working patterns, to make sure we have wrap around child care right through the day so that parents who wish to work – especially women who often bear the burden of child care – are able to work.

I think many many women, and men for that matter, are desperately worried about housing. They're worried about housing, what their house might be, they're worried about how their children can find any opportunity to get on the housing ladder and find a house to rent.

On electoral reform, I've never believed in proportional representation, I don't agree with Alan on that. I wrote a book 20 years ago called Proportional Misrepresentation and the reason is that I think the fundamental point is that you have to have a link to your local constituency. If your local voters don't like you, they can get rid of you. For that reason I will favour electoral reform the alternative vote where you vote one, two, three and at least you have to have at least 50% of the votes to get elected. And only a third of us in Parliament at the moment, in all parties, have more than 50% of the vote. I'm opposed to proportional representation but in favour of the alternative vote because it retains the single constituency.

Question

What do you think the role is of the local communities?

Question

What about trade unionists, how are we going to encourage more working people to join the trade union and take part in that democracy, that way round?

HH

First building the support of Labour in local communities, I think we've got to recognise and value much more Labour in local government. We talk a lot about communities, we talk about neighbourhoods, we talk about empowering people at the local level, but too often that's been ignoring local government, and particularly Labour in local government. And one of the things that I think we've done is that we've allowed the Tories in local government to claim the credit in their local communities for a lot of things that Labour in government has done. [applause].

MW

Example?

HH

Well if a Sure Start centre opens, if there's a new school building, if there are free bus passes. We thought that if we did these things people would see that Labour had done them and they would think that was great and that would build support for Labour. We should have had, like they have red diesel, we should have a red pound so that the new GP centre goes red, so that the tax credit that goes into people's letter boxes goes red. At a local level we should have worked with Labour councillors instead of then seeing in their local newspapers the Tories claiming credit for what Labour has actually done in government.

As far as trade unions is concerned is that I think the work that trade unions do in the workplace, backing people up if they're unfairly treated, negotiating to secure flexibility of work and to ensure better pensions, work that trade unions do to back up individual men and women in the workplace is one of the best kept secrets in the country and I think we should be brave and bold and start saying that again.

H Benn

I think the biggest issue for local communities is for people to feel they have some influence over what happens in their lives because in a world where sometimes people feel that all the power is ebbing away to Europe and globally they want to know that they can decide how they're going to be policed and what kind of services are going to be provided. And I think the way to help people come to terms with globalisation is to give communities that say. We must be unashamed to be prepared to hand power down.

On trade unions, Harriet is absolutely right. Trade unions are a really important part of our civil society and the need for trade unionism, the helping hand of the people, is just as great now as it was the beginning of the 19th century. But we also have to tell the truth. The biggest challenge that the trade union movement faces is not the legislation on the statute book but getting out there to persuade people that trade unionism is that helping hand. Many people haven't been asked to join a union so that they can be members and build the strength of that presence in the workplace and to help men and women deal with the problems of work because whatever the law says we need someone to help us achieve our rights and the trade union movement is an enormous protection to every single one of us.

MW

[to H Blears] Which trade union are solicitors part of?

H Blears

Well a lot of solicitors belong to the Law Society which is probably the best trade union in the world – restrictive practices and negotiation…

Local communities. I think it's absolutely essential that the Labour party is embedded in local communities. I remember when I was a candidate in 1992 in Bury South and I'll tell you there the local community had been utterly overtaken by Tories. Wherever you looked, whether it was the CAB or the voluntary groups, the youth clubs, the mums and toddlers groups – Tories everywhere. One of the reasons we won in 97 was we changed the values in that local community level and we had Labour people running those local organisations, being with the people who shared our values. And my big worry now is the Tories are starting to encroach onto this ground. Who's running the WRBS, whose running the CAB, whose running those charity groups? It's absolutely essential for us in electoral terms that we get back into those communities and they see the Labour party doing something. Labour students are going out doing community clean ups, they're not sitting in meetings talking to each other. And unless the Labour party is seen out there doing something, not talking in meetings, we're in trouble.

Trade unions. I joined a trade union before I joined the Labour party, shop steward, branch chair, the whole lot. But trade unions have got to have a more relevant offer for people. We've got a Labour government, membership should be booming, but it's stagnant. I think one of the best things trade unions can offer, as well as protecting people, is their learning offer. Trade union learning reps are some of the most popular people because people want to get on and that life long learning offer, trade unions can often reach people and talk to them about education in a way that the traditional education system never will. I think trade unions, like the Labour party, have got to be relevant and accessible if it's actually going to….[applause].

MW

[to AJ] Who runs the WRBS in Hull?

AJ

The WRBS….a man called John Kelly, why?

On the issue of communities can I just make one passing reference. You know the success of Sure Start being established in deprived areas was that communities felt it was bottom up. The down side of that is they don't feel it comes from the government. In a sense its downside is its success. We've done a lot in terms of making our democracy healthier – devolution, the GLA, raising the age at which a candidate can stand to 18 – but this decentralisation and devolution to the regions has kind of ground to a halt. So you have a situation now where lots of money goes to regional development agency but people don't feel they have a democratic input into how that money is spent. And I think this is the big idea as to how we take that agenda further and how we allow social enterprises etc to have much more ability to influence their society.

On the trade union movement, two important things have to be said. Peter mentioned Northern Ireland and as he knows the trade union movement in Northern Ireland is virtually the only non-partisan voice. The bravery of trade unionists in standing up to sectarian violence was extraordinary. And now, in this country, it's trade unions that are seeking to ensure that EU migrants are properly treated when the temptation must have been to take a different route. The courage of trade unions, and their central role they play in a mature democracy, needs to be recognised. They felt, in John Moncks' famous words, they were treated like embarrassing elderly relatives by this government in its first term, and that has to stop. We also have to stop trade union leaders treating us like recalcitrant mill owners because we're not. So there needs to be a much better dialogue. And we need to ensure that people understand that trade unions are a fundamental part of democracy. That involves trade unions being involved in decision making in the company, not when everything goes wrong and they need trade unions help to put it right, but on a week in week out basis involving workers in their future in the company. We've never quite established that, we had industrial democracy experiments in the 70s, we've got information consultation now, but it's not really changing anything at the workplace. And that would be a very good area to look at.

PH

I would say in addition on local communities, Nye Bevin expressed for me what the Labour party is all about, it's about empowering people, empowering individuals and giving power away to local communities and individuals. And we've got to do much more of that, decentralising to local governments and below at neighbourhood level as well. But there's relevance for the party here, and I agree very much with what Hazel said. We've got to have our councillors getting out and working their streets on the doorstep and getting under the radar of a relentless media assault from the Tories and a climate in which it's almost impossible to discuss Labour ideas, but to get out into the communities and really campaign hard and win back all that ground which has been eroded over recent years. And that involves empowering from government as well.

On trade unions, like Hilary and Alan, I've been a full time trade union official. Let me make two points here. One, they are all in the party it seems to me is non-negotiable. The unions set up the party, they are entitled to an important role in the decision making of the party and I do not agree with undermining that. I think we must have a much better relationship and partnership and proper negotiations between government and trade unions in which trade unions realise that not all of their demands immediately or all conceded, but at least there's a proper negotiation which doesn't always happen, especially in recent years which has led to a lot of disengagement. Another comment about what is happening in Britain. There's a two tier labour market of people on the bottom tier who are not organised, dreadfully exploited, often working for agencies, and our employment rights we legislated for are not being enforced, and we have to have much more active mechanisms including, I believe, an employment commission to enforce those rights, to give individuals who are not getting the rights to which they are entitled properly represented. We've got to do this in a different way. [applause].

JC

I think this devolution issue is absolutely central. My borough in east London can't build any council houses but it's the outstanding problem in our borough. The other one is that we resisted the imposition of an academy and we were taken off the programme for the schools…

MW

We'll come back to that. I should have stopped you, I made a mistake…Steph Charalambous. We've now moved on to increasing life chances in Britain….

Question

I'm 22, just starting a job in October, just wondering how you'll help me afford a house. don't worry about me too much, worry about the families of London and the southeast.

Question

I want to know what role city academies and grammar schools can have in the educational policy of a renewed Labour government

Question

My question was, would any of you be prepared to tackle faith schools? [applause]

JC

The issue of academies is actually central to the issue of devolution. I think we have to look at some of the initiatives over the last few years which have actually centralised public policy making. I'll give you the example of academies in our area, a sixth form academy, which we resisted because it would take a lot of, especially white working class boys, out of the sixth forms and we said no and had a good thorough proper debate. A few weeks later we were taken off the capital programme of building schools…the two were linked because we would not accept the imposition of the academy. I've got problems with the preoccupation for structures around the academy programme, you know comprehensive approach of every child matters, and it's fracturing local partnerships which are actually achieving some outstanding results in our area. So I have a problem with academies but I also have a problem with the way the capital programme is being used to help those boroughs who are embracing such initiatives and are undermining the strategy of those that won't and I think that's wrong in principle.

In terms of housing, the outstanding issue, in London we've had 100,000 added to the council allocation transfer list since 2004. it's the outstanding issue and there's a danger of us having a collective amnesia here because for the last four years of Labour party conference I've spoken on a number of platforms about the fourth option in council housing and we still have resisted it. Unless we create a level playing field in terms of capital funding and allowing councils to build council housing we're not going to get over this because there are escalating supply side problems, there's a chronic market failure around housing and unless we remove the ideology and embrace pragmatic, devolved solutions around public provision we're not going to get out of this problem. [applause]

MW

Faith schools?

JC

I'm a product of comprehensive Catholic education as is every one of my family. I think in my borough we have them interlinked into a robust partnership with the local authority, with all of the other primary and secondary schools, which actually has achieved the largest increase in A to Cs of any borough since 97. it's a model that works and I think if we just focus in on attacking faith schools, politically that's disadvantageous to us and also I think it's focusing on the wrong issue which is raising the long tail of underachievement, especially amongst white working class males…[applause]

PH

I reflected as Sec of State for Northern Ireland where I'm trying to break down segregation in education [applause]. To bring people together, not least because there's falling school roles and there's a rise in integrated education. But I would not have started here, but we are where we are. And there have been faith schools for both Anglicans and Catholics now for generations and, once that's the case, I don't see how you can deny other faiths the right to have faith schools as well.

On housing, on the question of city academies and grammar schools, the party's policy on grammar schools is set and I'm not for revisiting that, it's subject to local accountability. I'd just say that where I had the opportunity in Northern Ireland I decide to abolish the 11+. It doesn't mean to say that grammar schools go, it does mean to say that selection goes and selection on a basis of any kind. I do not agree with that, I do not think that's a proper Labour policy. But I also believe in introducing specialist schools and more local controls, there are different models of how to do that.

On Steph's question about housing. I'm particularly pleased that Gordon has made one of his initial policy commitments eco-towns and really getting much more affordable housing. There are really two areas you've got to tackle. You've got to allow people to get on the housing ladder by mixed equity schemes, by building homes also on public land where it's the cost of the house that is for sale or the cost of the house that is for rent, and by building much more social housing whether it's councils or housing associations we will not conquer the housing crisis unless we deal with that and unless we deal with the problem where all new housing pretty well is being bought up on a buy to let basis which is destroying the opportunities of so many young people and so many people on low incomes right across the length and breadth of Britain.

H Blears

On housing, I think it's as important now as in 1945 and it isn't just London and the southeast but right across the country, wherever you go now people are really struggling, very often young people are living at home with mum and dad into their early 30s because they can't afford anywhere to live. And there are a few things we can do: we need to build more houses to get up 200,000 a year, we're nowhere near that yet, we need to look at lower shared equity so you can just buy a very small proportion and as you go on you can buy more. I think we do need to look at some of the tax incentives and tax disincentives that around buy to let. Stamp duty is a big issue, I'm not making stamp duty policy here but it is a big issue….

MW

No, Gordon says you're not…[laughter]

H Blears

I agree with John here, I don't think we should be having an ideological divide on housing, I think we should be saying what works, good local authorities you are excellent in lots of fields, not building huge estates like in the past but small developments where people want to live I think's very important.

City academies, the question was, should city academies have a place in Labour's policy. City academies are not grammar schools. I think city academies are a fantastic way of actually getting a culture of learning in some of the poorest communities in Britain. [applause] I went to a grammar school, my brother didn't – he failed the 11+, he drives a bus, I'm in the cabinet….I don't like grammar schools [laughter]. What they did at my grammar school was they had a culture of learning and I did things in that school that, coming from my background, I'd never have dreamt of doing. I did Latin. Now city academies, we've got one in Salford that I've been to visit recently. It's on toughest council estate in Salford. On a Thursday, I said what do you do? And they said, on a Thursday we have enrichment….the army come in, we've been skiing, we've been to the ballet. They've done all these things they'd never dreamt of doing. And half the kids in the academy think they'll go to university. When I was growing up I was the only person in my school class who got onto higher education and half the kids now want to do it so city academies, I can't say how brilliant they're going to be. [applause]

Faith schools. I'll just give you one quick example. I've got a huge orthodox Jewish community in my constituency. Most of the girls went to private school because they wouldn't participate in the ordinary system, so they didn't get national curriculum, they didn't get a decent education. I spent the last five years getting them into the maintained sector. They're never going to go to a mixed community school, they wanted a Jewish school, but we got them into the maintained sector and what we've done is linked that orthodox Jewish school which is very strict faith but we've linked it with the other schools in our community, so there's not segregation, people are getting experience of different faiths and backgrounds. It's something I'm very proud of because before that they were stuck away in a place not learning the things that other children got a chance to learn and now it's really revolutionised their education. So faith schools, I'm not going to attack them – I think they've got a good role to play – but what we mustn't have is segregation of communities where people do not understand and do not share the same values. [applause]

H Benn

On housing it's very clear that we need more affordable housing because a rising population, economic success, relationship breakdown, the buy to let market is putting enormous pressure. And just in the eight years I've been a member of parliament for Leeds central I've seen things move from a time when the council was pulling down council houses and when advertising to rent today, if you'll come along and occupy one – the trouble was they were in communities where nobody wanted to live – to now where many families wonder, will their children be able to live near there? And frankly all the options should be on the table.

On faith schools, would I shut them down? No I wouldn't because they're part of our history, they're part of the reason many of us have universal education. Many people in our community and in our country want people to be educated and brought up in their faith. What really matters about schools if the ethos, whether they're church schools or not church schools, but we've got to learn to live alongside each other in this world.

On city academies, I just reflect on my experience in my constituency. Shortly after I was elected one of the head teachers in south Leeds said to me 'you know Hilary my students are no less intelligent than anyone else but what they desperately lack is self-confidence and aspiration. In Leeds you have cheek by jowl the symbols of economic success – the cranes on the skyline in the city centre, the new flats, the development the jobs – and people are living a mile and half away but they could be living on another planet when it comes to their sense of their part of the success of Leeds. And what is the key to change? It is education, and I have to tell you, based on my experience, we must leave no stone unturned in trying to ensure we bring out the potential that is within every single boy and girl in our schools so they have the chance of a better life. That's why from the beginning of our movement, we talked about trade unions earlier, agitate and organise – what was the word in the middle? – educate because we know that leads to a better life. And we should try all the approaches that we can to tap all of the talent of all our children. [applause].

HH

There's not enough housing and there's not enough affordable housing and it's not just London, it's all around the country. And we do have it on our mugs, on our pledge cards in 97 but we need it to be a priority now. And I think we can have a bit of electoral competition on this, I mean David Cameron is nothing if not a complete opportunist. If we said that we were going to say, for example, build 200,000 more council houses, he would pop up and say 'we will build 200,001. so I think that we need to get it right smack bang in the middle of the political agenda where it hasn't been because it's fundamental to equality and opportunity – you can't have that if people are in overcrowded and poor housing conditions.

When it comes to the education points, in relation to city academies, I think the most important thing is that people want a good local school in their neighbourhood that they can send their children to. And I think in relation to specialist schools, I think it's quite difficult to know, say you've got three children, when one is 10, how do you know as a parent if they're going to be a great linguist or a great sportsperson or a great musician or a great scientist. I think it's quite hard to pick what specialty your child is going to have at the age of 10. if you've got three children and one seems to be very good at science at 10 or languages, and you've got them going to three different schools, how can you as a parent work in partnership with the school? It's more difficult if your children are going to different schools. I think that what people want is a good local school…[applause]…in their neighbourhood. And I think the choice agenda arose when the Tories had let the state schools fall int