Barnado's chief executive Martin Narey has called for a revamp of ASBOs. He told a Fabian fringe: "We've got to go back to the design board and use ASBOs more sparingly on children." ASBO creator Alun Michael admits change is needed and says ASBOs were not originally designed for children. Former Home Secretary David Blunkett said the government had not been punitive in its approach.

Beyond Respect

25 September 2007

Stop child ASBOs, campaigners tell Hughes

• Martin Narey of Barnardo's says "we've got to go back to the design board and use ASBOs more sparingly on children."
• Blunkett, Narey and Hughes unite in calling for Government to defend Sure Start's reputation.
• Blunkett says "The idiots who did the Sure Start evaluation evaluated the wrong outcomes"

Chair Louise Bamfield asked how we can shift from a punitive approach to dealing with anti-social behaviour to a more progressive one. She said that there's always been a progressive case for these measures, but that the rhetoric has sometimes been alienating, for example when the progressive Action Plan on Social Exclusion was launched it was spun as being about 'baby ASBOs'.

Former Home Secretary David Blunkett said that he entirely refuted the idea that the Government had been punitive and pointed to the family intervention programme and the parenting agenda and Sure Start. He did agree that they could have done some things differently: "If I had my time again I would have argued harder for child and adult mental health services. Now that I've left office I still can't see in the dark but I see much more clearly in the light now. Four out of every five who breach an ASBO have already had a conviction. So therefore there's a fundamental issue about how you get into those people's lives and support them. If you don't get the support of the wider community you won't engage with them."

He also said that the Government must do better on the issue of hate crimes against mentally handicapped men and women and treat these as seriously as homophobic or racist crimes now are.

Barnardos' chief executive Martin Narey said that ASBOs and children were his main concern. ASBOs, he said, weren't originally meant to apply to children and Alun Michael, who had originally designed the order, agreed with him. Yet, said Narey, about half of all ASBOs are given to children and a third of ASBOs are given to children with a mental health issue or learning difficulties. Of those given to children, 76 per cent are breached.

Narey argued that ASBOs should never be given without an Individual Support Order – as the legislation had originally intended – currently just 3% are. Manchester in particular, he said, is becoming the ASBO capital of the world. He said that Ed Balls was right when he recently said that giving a child an ASBO was a sign of failure and that the best thing we could do about ASBOs was to solve child poverty: "Anti-social behaviour is often a natural consequence of a childhood in poverty. Life expectancy in Glasgow is 54 – lower than the Gaza Strip. We have a commitment made in 1999 to halving child poverty by 2010 and it looks like we'll be a million short."

He said that the challenge was huge but not impossible. "The government needs to find £3.8bn to meet the challenge of child poverty. Compared with £9bn to host the Olympics. We need to do it for moral and economic reasons. It will reduce anti-social behaviour and crime."

Labour MP Alun Michael said "We need to put more emphasis on the impact of the peer group – this is enormously influential on teenagers. I invented the ASBO in opposition and implemented it. The legal system deals in snapshots whereas real lives happen as movies. The ASBO allows a build-up to serious offending. We needed and still need a lateral approach that isn't just about punishment. If you don't contravene an ASBO there's no punishment or conviction. But for it to work you have to have a sense of something to lose and that's where I have a problem with its use for young people. Also you need the certainty of it being followed up. That's why enforcement is crucial. So personally I would like to see us going back to the original intention."

Martin Narey agreed: "Alun's given us the answer. We go back to the design board and use it much more sparingly for children. On every occasion there needs to be a support order. From the moment young people are given an ASBO they are doomed to breaching them and going to prison."

David Ore of the National Housing Federation said there were alternatives and pointed to Withenshaw in Manchester. "Eight years ago it was the most deprived area of the country. But the housing trust has transformed the area. They've used ASBOs but not much. What they've done is invested in the public realm – sports and football facilities. They've turned that place from having 30 per cent void property to waiting lists to get in there. If it was only about ASBOs they wouldn't have succeeded. They engaged with the people and the place."

Liz Sayce, Chief Executive of national pan-disability network RADAR asked whether we had the right treatment and support services for people with mental health problems and learning disabilities – where unemployment is about 80 per cent.

Minister for Children and Young People Beverley Hughes said she wanted to challenge our assumptions. A response to anti-social behaviour that doesn't include some punitive measures would not work: "We all have constituents whose lives are blighted and terrorised by young people. The steps we take have to be visible to people. At its best what the 'Respect' agenda has involved is much more than ASBOs. In Manchester, their approach is not just about being the ASBO capital of the world, it is about being locally driven and having a balanced approach to young people." She said that the media and politicians have talked about this in a way that has branded young people very negatively. "Communities", said Hughes, "do need to see some element of enforcement but it always has to be accompanied by the empowerment of the community and also early intervention. Sometimes it is that initial enforcement that brings people to the table but you need to follow it up."

In response to a question about how to support good parenting, she also said that "We should always ask ourselves 'is this adult I'm working with a parent and, if so, what is happening with the children. It sounds like a no-brainer to work with parents but it doesn't always happen."

Caroline Abrahams from the Local Government Association asked about mentoring and what the panel thought of those positive structured activities that the youth strategy talks about: "Young people benefit from working with a trusted adult who helps them understand about rules and that allows everyone to benefit."

In response, Martin Narey said that you can't send someone on a four-week Outward Bound course and expect everything in their lives to change. However, mentoring was a different matter: "I was astonished with the success I saw with people in prison when we piloted mentoring. Often with young men the first positive trusted adult they meet is a prison officer."

David Blunkett highlighted the problem of young carers: "The issue of drugs and alcohol sometimes means that many older children become carers. We have spasms from time to time about young people as carers and then it goes away. There are very many young people who are really struggling."

Duncan Shrubsole from Crisis said: "We now take crime into account when we're deciding how our neighbourhoods are going to be planned and you can do the same with anti-social behaviour. With our house building programme we need to ensure there are shops and good connections."

David Blunkett agreed: "The poor quality of the public realm is part of the problem. Changing people's behaviour by changing the environment and recognising the importance of place is important." He also said that mediation was important: "There isn't sufficient, but there are local authorities who are doing it, particularly around neighbour nuisance and problematic families."

Louise Bamfield asked if we could marry what the panel had been talking about with the enforcement side. Martin Narey replied that we could, but that "if you want ASBOs to work you have to deal with the reasons for anti-social behaviour. There is over representation of BME groups by a factor of about four or five. We have a real shortage of services for adult mental health. Ninety per cent of people who show up in prison have mental health issues."

The panel's discussion moved to Sure Start where there was unanimity that it had been a great success. Narey said: "I'm appalled by the now fashionable attacks on Sure Start. I think it's simply outstanding. It's moving to see parents who see the effect on their children. I think it's really disappointing that it's being derided."

Terry Randle from the millennium survey of children born in 2000 said that Sure Start was making a massive and very noticeable difference to those who attended compared to those who didn't: "The difference between the two groups were fundamental. When I read the report that Sure Start didn't work, I was gob smacked. It's quite clear from our survey that children who have been through it are better able to cope, are more socially confident and they show good attainment. The effect was very marked in 04 and 06."

Blunkett concurred and attacked last year's research which suggested Sure Start hadn't been successful: "I agree entirely with what Martin's said. The research was given the wrong remit. They haven't talked to the adults or the community who have benefited. Beverley, Martin and I unite in bewilderment that Sure Start isn't being defended. The idiots who did the evaluation evaluated the wrong outcomes."